近日，由南非政府資助成立的南非廣播公司(South African Broadcasting Corporation，簡稱SABC)對南非核工業協會(Niasa)新任主席Itumeleng Mosala教授進行了專訪。
with energy sources right now it will
現在有了能源
only get worse in the years to come
只會在未來幾年變得更糟
does this then mean nuclear energy must
這是否意味著核能必須
be something to be added to that mix and
成為要添加到該混合中的東西
perhaps significantly so absolutely
也許絕對如此
absolutely absolutely Peter and to the
絕對絕對的彼得和
credit of government there was a time
政府的信譽曾經有一段時間
when I say government I'm not only
當我說政府時，我不僅
talking about the incumbent the current
談論當前的現狀
incumbency I am talking about government
我在談論政府
in general to the credit of government
總的來說要歸功于政府
runabout 2006 2007 2008 there was a real
大約2006年2007年2008年
strong plan and intention to supplement
強烈的計劃和補充意圖
the current sources of energy with
當前的能源
nuclear you remember that there was a
核，你還記得有一個
time when government had planned to
政府計劃的時間
build new new energy plants by way of
通過以下方式建設新的新能源工廠
nucleon 9,500 megawatts I think it was
9,500兆瓦的核子，我認為是
and that plan unfortunately fell foul to
不幸的是，該計劃犯規
the decisions of politics and and of
政治和的決定
history in the last 10 to 15 years but
過去10到15年的歷史，但是
you know had we started that process we
你知道我們開始了這個過程嗎
would actually be saying soon we will be
實際上會說很快我們會
out of trouble because nutria is
擺脫麻煩，因為
reliable nuclear is clean and nuclear has
可靠的核電是干凈的，并且核電具有
always helped other governments out in
總是幫助其他政府
crisis and times like this so one of the
危機和這樣的時代，所以其中之一
challenges that people keep throwing
人們不斷拋出的挑戰
against the nuclear story is cost is it
反對核故事是代價
a cost that we can afford to have or one
我們負擔得起的成本或一個
that we can afford not to have not of
我們可以負擔得起的
whatever no this there's a great deal of
無論如何，這有很多
ignorance when it comes to the economics
關于經濟學的無知
of nuclear people do fail to understand
的核人們確實不了解
that nuclear is a major long-term
核能是長期的主要問題
economic investment in the cut it's not
削減經濟投資不是
like buying a commodity from a shelf
就像從架子上購買商品
it's not like going into a car dealer
這不像去汽車經銷商
and buying a car it is an investment
買車是一種投資
of a major economic nature first of all
首先具有重要的經濟性質
it would be part of of a great
這將是偉大的一部分
industrialization attempt by our country
我國的工業化嘗試
nuclear is not just the component that
核不僅是
brings electricity the building of
帶電建設
nuclear plants take ten years one at a
一家核電站要花十年時間
time
時間
and the lifetime of a nuclear plant is
核電廠的壽命是
on average 60 years and so although in
平均60年左右，盡管
our count in temperature I'm making a
我們的溫度數
very important distinction here and this
這里和這個非常重要的區別
is why I say there's a lot of ignorance
這就是為什么我說很多無知的原因
when it comes to this when you are
當涉及到這個
looking at nuclear and what resources
看核能和什么資源
you need to build it you can't only look
您需要構建它，而不僅僅是
at accounting costs you won't look at
不用考慮會計費用
economic costs because the benefits that
經濟成本，因為收益
camera feet are not simply accounting
相機的腳不只是計算
benefits that economic benefits as well
也帶來經濟利益
and so although it takes 10 years to
所以雖然要花10年
build a nuclear plant it has a lifetime
建立一個有生命的核電站
of 60 years so you have 60 years of
60年，所以您有60年的
revenues coming from that nuclear
來自核能的收入
nuclear plant that you have built and so
你建的核電站等等
people are particularly ignorant when it
人們什么時候特別無知
comes to that what you need are economic
得出您所需要的是經濟的
profits out of a nuclear investment and
從核投資中獲利
not only accounting returns and if you
不僅會計報酬，如果您
look at it economically you look at it
經濟地看它，你看它
from a point of view often of financial
從財務角度來看
economics and corporate finance and not
經濟學和公司融資而非
simply at bookkeeping in bookkeeping
只是在簿記中
terms and you will know that media is
條款，您就會知道媒體是
effectiveness in fact not expensive and
效果實際上并不昂貴，
I dare say as thinking as I'm putting on
我敢說像我穿上衣服一樣
my economics hat or my corporate finance
我的經濟學帽子或公司財務
head on I dare say it is not
繼續前進我敢說不是
unaffordable it is definitely affordable
負擔不起，絕對是負擔得起的
we need to see the models to be able to
我們需要查看模型才能
judge alright so I believe that there
好的法官，所以我相信
more than 10 countries of 30 countries
30個國家的10多個國家
on the continent that are considering
在考慮中的大陸
working with the energy and that they've
與能源合作，他們已經
already engaged with the IAEA to assess
已經與原子能機構合作進行評估
the readiness to embark on
準備出發
nuclear program so this is a a feeling
核計劃，所以這是一個感覺
that a number of African countries are
一些非洲國家
already considering absolutely because
已經考慮絕對是因為
also that one of the difficulties about
也是關于
the debate in South Africa is that it
南非的辯論是
gets distorted by the whole issue of
被整個問題扭曲
what do we do with surplus coal that we
我們如何處理剩余的煤炭
have in the country on the one hand on
一方面在國內
the other hand people are saying we have
另一方面，人們說我們有
environmental concerns which are very
對環境的關注非常
very legitimate I dare say and therefore
我敢說非常合法，因此
we should be looking very strongly at at
我們應該非常關注
renewables but you see renewables and
可再生能源，但您看到可再生能源和
nuclear I'm not against it other
核我不反對其他
liberals and nuclear are both clean
自由派和核都干凈
energies but in particular more than
能量，但尤其是
renewables nuclear is dependable nuclear
可再生能源核是可靠的核
is always available once you have it is
擁有后始終可用
more reliable than both coal and and and
比煤，和和
the other renewables so it is absolutely
其他可再生能源，所以絕對
important that countries on the
重要的是
continent should be moving in that
大陸應該在那移動
direction because you need something
方向，因為你需要一些東西
that you can depend upon you need
你可以依靠你的需要
something that is clean and my view is
干凈的東西，我的看法是
quite apart from that if you want to
除此之外，如果您想
industrialize we're talking about major
工業化，我們正在談論重大
major industrialization investments when
主要工業化投資何時
it comes to to nuclear alright then
然后涉及到核
perhaps one final question you've just
也許你只是最后一個問題
been appointed the president of the
被任命為總統
nuclear industry association of South
南方核工業協會
Africa what's your vision for the
非洲您對
association and all the partners that
協會和所有合作伙伴
play a part in developing a nuclear
在發展核能方面發揮作用
energy and technologies in South Africa
南非的能源和技術
will two major issues Peter one is the
彼得會提出兩個主要問題嗎？
the one that I've just mentioned that
我剛才提到的那個
the partners and the players in the
合作伙伴和參與者
nuclear industry in this country are
這個國家的核工業是
very much the kind of partners in the
非常像
economy that are required to help the
需要幫助的經濟
economy take a step forward we need to
經濟向前邁進，我們需要
be
是
to create sustainable careers people
創造可持續發展的職業人才
talk about jobs but you know jobs I just
談論工作，但你知道我只是工作
jobs careers and in a sector and an
就業機會，在一個部門和一個
industry are much more durable a much
工業更耐用得多
more part of what it is that we want to
我們想要的更多
do to create sustainability in our
在我們的可持續發展中做
increment in our society so the nuclear
在我們的社會增加，所以核
sector the nutrient markets the nuclear
營養品市場核能
companies the industry as a whole is a
公司整個行業是一個
very very important area of investment
非常非常重要的投資領域
in our economy and people keep talking
在我們的經濟中，人們一直在談論
about industrialization we talked about
關于我們談到的工業化
industrial nation and we mustn't forget
工業國家，我們不能忘記
that the president puts a lot of
總統把很多
emphasis of the fourth Industrial
第四產業重點
Revolution and it could be it couldn't
革命，可能不是
be much more relevant than in the area
比該地區更重要
of nuclear technology technology nuclei
核技術技術核
in fact is predominantly technology but
實際上主要是技術，
the second issue about Ybarra Barbot
關于Ybarra Barbot的第二期
what we look at as an association and my
我們將其視為協會和我的
vision for this association is is
這個協會的愿景是
education you know what is dangerous in
教育你知道什么是危險的
a country is when common sense begins -
一個國家就是常識開始的時候-
common sense is nice to have but we
常識很好，但是我們
can't run the economy on the basis of
不能基于
common sense
常識
we can't take decisions about the
我們無法就
economics of as an energy source based
作為能源的經濟學基礎
on common sense there's a lot of
在常識上，有很多
ignorance in the country economists I
國家經濟學家的無知我
don't know where they are and where they
不知道他們在哪里，在哪里
are hiding economies that should be
隱藏著應該
clarifying issues are not doing so
澄清問題沒有這樣做
professionals and educated people who
專業人士和受過教育的人
should be helping are not doing so
應該有所幫助而不是這樣做
people in the technical areas of
技術領域的人
engineering whether it have mechanical
工程學是否有機械
what are you talking electrical or
你在說什么電或
electrical civil engineering are not
電氣土木工程不是
visible in the public space we need to
在公共空間中可見，我們需要
lead the way we can't expect people to
引領人們無法期望的方式
simply wake up and understand what we're
只需醒來，了解我們在做什么
talking about so NASA the nuclear
在談論美國宇航局的核
industry Association of South Africa has
南非工業協會
a very important role to play in South
在南方扮演非常重要的角色
Africa
非洲
mobilizing the partners and the industry
動員合作伙伴和行業
but also in an educational way all right
而且還可以通過教育的方式
we wish you the best of luck thank you
祝您好運，謝謝
very much indeed for joining us on this
確實非常感謝加入我們
day and sharing your thoughts with us
日，并與我們分享您的想法
professor Messala thank you sir
梅薩拉教授，謝謝您，先生
Itumeleng Mosala教授表示：核能是長期的主要問題，可靠的核電是干凈的，是我們能夠負擔的起的。我們需要可持續發展，所以我們需要建設核電，這是非常非常重要的投資，并且南非核工業協會在其中扮演非常重要的角色。
相關閱讀：南非核工業協會(Niasa)任命新主席
with energy sources right now it will
現在有了能源
only get worse in the years to come
只會在未來幾年變得更糟
does this then mean nuclear energy must
這是否意味著核能必須
be something to be added to that mix and
成為要添加到該混合中的東西
perhaps significantly so absolutely
也許絕對如此
absolutely absolutely Peter and to the
絕對絕對的彼得和
credit of government there was a time
政府的信譽曾經有一段時間
when I say government I'm not only
當我說政府時，我不僅
talking about the incumbent the current
談論當前的現狀
incumbency I am talking about government
我在談論政府
in general to the credit of government
總的來說要歸功于政府
runabout 2006 2007 2008 there was a real
大約2006年2007年2008年
strong plan and intention to supplement
強烈的計劃和補充意圖
the current sources of energy with
當前的能源
nuclear you remember that there was a
核，你還記得有一個
time when government had planned to
政府計劃的時間
build new new energy plants by way of
通過以下方式建設新的新能源工廠
nucleon 9,500 megawatts I think it was
9,500兆瓦的核子，我認為是
and that plan unfortunately fell foul to
不幸的是，該計劃犯規
the decisions of politics and and of
政治和的決定
history in the last 10 to 15 years but
過去10到15年的歷史，但是
you know had we started that process we
你知道我們開始了這個過程嗎
would actually be saying soon we will be
實際上會說很快我們會
out of trouble because nutria is
擺脫麻煩，因為
reliable nuclear is clean and nuclear has
可靠的核電是干凈的，并且核電具有
always helped other governments out in
總是幫助其他政府
crisis and times like this so one of the
危機和這樣的時代，所以其中之一
challenges that people keep throwing
人們不斷拋出的挑戰
against the nuclear story is cost is it
反對核故事是代價
a cost that we can afford to have or one
我們負擔得起的成本或一個
that we can afford not to have not of
我們可以負擔得起的
whatever no this there's a great deal of
無論如何，這有很多
ignorance when it comes to the economics
關于經濟學的無知
of nuclear people do fail to understand
的核人們確實不了解
that nuclear is a major long-term
核能是長期的主要問題
economic investment in the cut it's not
削減經濟投資不是
like buying a commodity from a shelf
就像從架子上購買商品
it's not like going into a car dealer
這不像去汽車經銷商
and buying a car it is an investment
買車是一種投資
of a major economic nature first of all
首先具有重要的經濟性質
it would be part of of a great
這將是偉大的一部分
industrialization attempt by our country
我國的工業化嘗試
nuclear is not just the component that
核不僅是
brings electricity the building of
帶電建設
nuclear plants take ten years one at a
一家核電站要花十年時間
time
時間
and the lifetime of a nuclear plant is
核電廠的壽命是
on average 60 years and so although in
平均60年左右，盡管
our count in temperature I'm making a
我們的溫度數
very important distinction here and this
這里和這個非常重要的區別
is why I say there's a lot of ignorance
這就是為什么我說很多無知的原因
when it comes to this when you are
當涉及到這個
looking at nuclear and what resources
看核能和什么資源
you need to build it you can't only look
您需要構建它，而不僅僅是
at accounting costs you won't look at
不用考慮會計費用
economic costs because the benefits that
經濟成本，因為收益
camera feet are not simply accounting
相機的腳不只是計算
benefits that economic benefits as well
也帶來經濟利益
and so although it takes 10 years to
所以雖然要花10年
build a nuclear plant it has a lifetime
建立一個有生命的核電站
of 60 years so you have 60 years of
60年，所以您有60年的
revenues coming from that nuclear
來自核能的收入
nuclear plant that you have built and so
你建的核電站等等
people are particularly ignorant when it
人們什么時候特別無知
comes to that what you need are economic
得出您所需要的是經濟的
profits out of a nuclear investment and
從核投資中獲利
not only accounting returns and if you
不僅會計報酬，如果您
look at it economically you look at it
經濟地看它，你看它
from a point of view often of financial
從財務角度來看
economics and corporate finance and not
經濟學和公司融資而非
simply at bookkeeping in bookkeeping
只是在簿記中
terms and you will know that media is
條款，您就會知道媒體是
effectiveness in fact not expensive and
效果實際上并不昂貴，
I dare say as thinking as I'm putting on
我敢說像我穿上衣服一樣
my economics hat or my corporate finance
我的經濟學帽子或公司財務
head on I dare say it is not
繼續前進我敢說不是
unaffordable it is definitely affordable
負擔不起，絕對是負擔得起的
we need to see the models to be able to
我們需要查看模型才能
judge alright so I believe that there
好的法官，所以我相信
more than 10 countries of 30 countries
30個國家的10多個國家
on the continent that are considering
在考慮中的大陸
working with the energy and that they've
與能源合作，他們已經
already engaged with the IAEA to assess
已經與原子能機構合作進行評估
the readiness to embark on
準備出發
nuclear program so this is a a feeling
核計劃，所以這是一個感覺
that a number of African countries are
一些非洲國家
already considering absolutely because
已經考慮絕對是因為
also that one of the difficulties about
也是關于
the debate in South Africa is that it
南非的辯論是
gets distorted by the whole issue of
被整個問題扭曲
what do we do with surplus coal that we
我們如何處理剩余的煤炭
have in the country on the one hand on
一方面在國內
the other hand people are saying we have
另一方面，人們說我們有
environmental concerns which are very
對環境的關注非常
very legitimate I dare say and therefore
我敢說非常合法，因此
we should be looking very strongly at at
我們應該非常關注
renewables but you see renewables and
可再生能源，但您看到可再生能源和
nuclear I'm not against it other
核我不反對其他
liberals and nuclear are both clean
自由派和核都干凈
energies but in particular more than
能量，但尤其是
renewables nuclear is dependable nuclear
可再生能源核是可靠的核
is always available once you have it is
擁有后始終可用
more reliable than both coal and and and
比煤，和和
the other renewables so it is absolutely
其他可再生能源，所以絕對
important that countries on the
重要的是
continent should be moving in that
大陸應該在那移動
direction because you need something
方向，因為你需要一些東西
that you can depend upon you need
你可以依靠你的需要
something that is clean and my view is
干凈的東西，我的看法是
quite apart from that if you want to
除此之外，如果您想
industrialize we're talking about major
工業化，我們正在談論重大
major industrialization investments when
主要工業化投資何時
it comes to to nuclear alright then
然后涉及到核
perhaps one final question you've just
也許你只是最后一個問題
been appointed the president of the
被任命為總統
nuclear industry association of South
南方核工業協會
Africa what's your vision for the
非洲您對
association and all the partners that
協會和所有合作伙伴
play a part in developing a nuclear
在發展核能方面發揮作用
energy and technologies in South Africa
南非的能源和技術
will two major issues Peter one is the
彼得會提出兩個主要問題嗎？
the one that I've just mentioned that
我剛才提到的那個
the partners and the players in the
合作伙伴和參與者
nuclear industry in this country are
這個國家的核工業是
very much the kind of partners in the
非常像
economy that are required to help the
需要幫助的經濟
economy take a step forward we need to
經濟向前邁進，我們需要
be
是
to create sustainable careers people
創造可持續發展的職業人才
talk about jobs but you know jobs I just
談論工作，但你知道我只是工作
jobs careers and in a sector and an
就業機會，在一個部門和一個
industry are much more durable a much
工業更耐用得多
more part of what it is that we want to
我們想要的更多
do to create sustainability in our
在我們的可持續發展中做
increment in our society so the nuclear
在我們的社會增加，所以核
sector the nutrient markets the nuclear
營養品市場核能
companies the industry as a whole is a
公司整個行業是一個
very very important area of investment
非常非常重要的投資領域
in our economy and people keep talking
在我們的經濟中，人們一直在談論
about industrialization we talked about
關于我們談到的工業化
industrial nation and we mustn't forget
工業國家，我們不能忘記
that the president puts a lot of
總統把很多
emphasis of the fourth Industrial
第四產業重點
Revolution and it could be it couldn't
革命，可能不是
be much more relevant than in the area
比該地區更重要
of nuclear technology technology nuclei
核技術技術核
in fact is predominantly technology but
實際上主要是技術，
the second issue about Ybarra Barbot
關于Ybarra Barbot的第二期
what we look at as an association and my
我們將其視為協會和我的
vision for this association is is
這個協會的愿景是
education you know what is dangerous in
教育你知道什么是危險的
a country is when common sense begins -
一個國家就是常識開始的時候-
common sense is nice to have but we
常識很好，但是我們
can't run the economy on the basis of
不能基于
common sense
常識
we can't take decisions about the
我們無法就
economics of as an energy source based
作為能源的經濟學基礎
on common sense there's a lot of
在常識上，有很多
ignorance in the country economists I
國家經濟學家的無知我
don't know where they are and where they
不知道他們在哪里，在哪里
are hiding economies that should be
隱藏著應該
clarifying issues are not doing so
澄清問題沒有這樣做
professionals and educated people who
專業人士和受過教育的人
should be helping are not doing so
應該有所幫助而不是這樣做
people in the technical areas of
技術領域的人
engineering whether it have mechanical
工程學是否有機械
what are you talking electrical or
你在說什么電或
electrical civil engineering are not
電氣土木工程不是
visible in the public space we need to
在公共空間中可見，我們需要
lead the way we can't expect people to
引領人們無法期望的方式
simply wake up and understand what we're
只需醒來，了解我們在做什么
talking about so NASA the nuclear
在談論美國宇航局的核
industry Association of South Africa has
南非工業協會
a very important role to play in South
在南方扮演非常重要的角色
Africa
非洲
mobilizing the partners and the industry
動員合作伙伴和行業
but also in an educational way all right
而且還可以通過教育的方式
we wish you the best of luck thank you
祝您好運，謝謝
very much indeed for joining us on this
確實非常感謝加入我們
day and sharing your thoughts with us
日，并與我們分享您的想法
professor Messala thank you sir
梅薩拉教授，謝謝您，先生
